Should a Mosque be built near ground zero?

[mcZu]

Not a training camp, but perhaps somewhere which encourages the beliefs that lead people to commit terroism.
I just can't really beleive that the people over in Saudi are too interested in "community cohesion" between muslims and non-muslims in New York when they regard all non-muslims (kuffir) as lesser beings.

The translation of the word kafir as infidel is a grave error. The word infidel means someone who does not believe in God. The Qur’an does not allege that Jews and Christians do not believe in God. On the contrary the Qur’an refers to Jews and Christians respectfully as “People of the Book” and says:
“And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
[Al-Qur’an 29:46]
The term kafir, referring to a type of person, or kufr, referring to an act, is used in the Quran in a variety of ways:

1. Anyone who believes in one thing is a kafir of its opposite. Here kafir means one who rejects and can even be used in a positive sense.
2. Kufr can be used in a neutral/ benign sense as the origin of kufr in the Arabic language means to cover up. So the farmer who is putting a seed in the ground and covering it up is performing kufr.
3. The word kafir is used in the Qur’an not only for Jews and Christians but also for those who periodically rejected their prophets. While the Qur’an accords a special respect for Jews and Christians, it does not gloss over the major theological differences. For instance, the Glorious Qur’an says:

“They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary…”
[Al-Qur’an 5:17]
4. The word kafir can also be used to imply a rejection of Islam. It describes one who knows the truth, but rejects it out of pride or vanity. This is someone who knows the truth in their heart and deliberately rejects it.

Nonetheless, Muslims believe it is their duty to convey the message of God to humankind, and leave the matter at that. God alone is the judge.

Muslims do NOT regard non-Mulsims as lesser beings. Get your facts straight, don't say things that aren't true.

[Irvinga04]

1 thing people seem to ignore is where the money is coming from to build this "community centre".
The funding has been confirmed as coming direct from Saudi Arabia, a place where you would be KILLED for converting out of Isam, where women are not allowed to travel freely without a mans permission and where there isnt a single church allowed in the land. Oh yes, and nearly all of the 9/11 hijackers were from there was well.
Its obvous the people funding it will have a big say in what is taught there, what materials are on display, ect.
If the purpose behind bulding it here was really to 'improve relations', surely they would have seen by now from the reaction that in fact it will do the opposite, and decide to move it to another site. This smacks to me of something a bit more sinister.

So, let me get this right, because the money is coming from Saudi Arabia they shouldn't built that Community Center? Just because a certain couple of ''highjackers'' where from that country? What has women rights to do with this topic? Because don't get me started on women rights, the world has the wrong image about Islam and women. And because there ins't a church in that country? Kudos, you've listed an incredible list of arguments against building this community center...

Let me tell you a lil' story, everyday people are dying the Gaza strip. Israeli troops are murdering innocent civilians. The weapons they use are bought from American companies. Does that mean that America is the cause of the killings? Does that mean that, because of the weapon distribution, these innocent people are dying because of America? NOOOOO. In other words, let's don't built any more embassies or anything US related in the world... Why? Because your logice says so...

That's probably the most preposterous argument against this community center yet. Assuming people will be trained to become terrorists because the business man who is funding this project is from Saudi Arabia, preposterous....

Ok, well you didnt even attempt to argue against my main points about Saudi, becuase they are non-arguable. Like i said, they kill converts out of islam, women have no rights and there are no churches/hindu temples/anything else allowed to be built. if you think thats an OK society, thats up to you.

My point is the people with those sort of religious views hate the west, and would love nothing more than to see it totally governed by islamic law. So when they fund a islamic centre next to the site of the twin towers, its fair to assume they wont exactly be teaching people to "just get along". Again this has been documented in some mosques in europe, the speakers have been spewing hatred, and videos and leaflets have been found to contain very extreme teachings.

Dont know what Gaza has got to do with anything... but anyway its a stupid arguement to just say "Israeli soldiers are killing civillians. Full stop." when there are countless years of violence on both sides, hamas are just as to blame for the killing of civilians as the israelis.

[fopower]

1 thing people seem to ignore is where the money is coming from to build this "community centre".
The funding has been confirmed as coming direct from Saudi Arabia, a place where you would be KILLED for converting out of Isam, where women are not allowed to travel freely without a mans permission and where there isnt a single church allowed in the land. Oh yes, and nearly all of the 9/11 hijackers were from there was well.
Its obvous the people funding it will have a big say in what is taught there, what materials are on display, ect.
If the purpose behind bulding it here was really to 'improve relations', surely they would have seen by now from the reaction that in fact it will do the opposite, and decide to move it to another site. This smacks to me of something a bit more sinister.

So are we now questioning whether or not the community center will be used as some sort of terrorist training camp? That seems to be what you're implying...

Not a training camp, but perhaps somewhere which encourages the beliefs that lead people to commit terroism.
I just can't really beleive that the people over in Saudi are too interested in "community cohesion" between muslims and non-muslims in New York when they regard all non-muslims (kuffir) as lesser beings.

Honestly, if you can't see the ignorance in what you're saying then I'm not going to bother trying to argue with you. I'm just going to say that Saudi Arabia as a country never declared any sentiments of considering non-muslims as lesser beings, it was a small group of terrorists from Saudi Arabia. And as someone above me mentioned, there is alot of money in Saudi Arabia, so Saudi business people fund all sorts of business ventures in America - including Fox News. Clearly, Fox news isn't trying to brainwash muslims in to killing non-muslims, now is it?

[Irvinga04]

Muslims do NOT regard non-Mulsims as lesser beings. Get your facts straight, don't say things that aren't true.

I never said all muslims did, its you that need to get your facts straight.

I'm just going to say that Saudi Arabia as a country never declared any sentiments of considering non-muslims as lesser beings, it was a small group of terrorists from Saudi Arabia.

Again, Saudi Arabia as a country will KILL anyone who converts out of islam. Why would they do this if they regard non-mulsims as equals?

[mcZu]

1 thing people seem to ignore is where the money is coming from to build this "community centre".
The funding has been confirmed as coming direct from Saudi Arabia, a place where you would be KILLED for converting out of Isam, where women are not allowed to travel freely without a mans permission and where there isnt a single church allowed in the land. Oh yes, and nearly all of the 9/11 hijackers were from there was well.
Its obvous the people funding it will have a big say in what is taught there, what materials are on display, ect.
If the purpose behind bulding it here was really to 'improve relations', surely they would have seen by now from the reaction that in fact it will do the opposite, and decide to move it to another site. This smacks to me of something a bit more sinister.

So, let me get this right, because the money is coming from Saudi Arabia they shouldn't built that Community Center? Just because a certain couple of ''highjackers'' where from that country? What has women rights to do with this topic? Because don't get me started on women rights, the world has the wrong image about Islam and women. And because there ins't a church in that country? Kudos, you've listed an incredible list of arguments against building this community center...

Let me tell you a lil' story, everyday people are dying the Gaza strip. Israeli troops are murdering innocent civilians. The weapons they use are bought from American companies. Does that mean that America is the cause of the killings? Does that mean that, because of the weapon distribution, these innocent people are dying because of America? NOOOOO. In other words, let's don't built any more embassies or anything US related in the world... Why? Because your logice says so...

That's probably the most preposterous argument against this community center yet. Assuming people will be trained to become terrorists because the business man who is funding this project is from Saudi Arabia, preposterous....

Ok, well you didnt even attempt to argue against my main points about Saudi, becuase they are non-arguable. Like i said, they kill converts out of islam, women have no rights and there are no churches/hindu temples/anything else allowed to be built. if you think thats an OK society, thats up to you.

My point is the people with those sort of religious views hate the west, and would love nothing more than to see it totally governed by islamic law. So when they fund a islamic centre next to the site of the twin towers, its fair to assume they wont exactly be teaching people to "just get along". Again this has been documented in some mosques in europe, the speakers have been spewing hatred, and videos and leaflets have been found to contain very extreme teachings.

Dont know what Gaza has got to do with anything... but anyway its a stupid arguement to just say "Israeli soldiers are killing civillians. Full stop." when there are countless years of violence on both sides, hamas are just as to blame for the killing of civilians as the israelis.

What is there to argue about that point when it isn't true? I've never heard about that outragous comment. If you have any proof to back it up, then please do so...

You seem to be not that keen now aren't you? I was pointing out how preposterous your statement was by utilizing an extreme example. Is it that hard to understand such a simple example? I've never said that Israeli soldiers are the only ones who are killing people. Yes, Hamas is to blame for a lot of killings as well. Don't try to twist my words.

Muslims do NOT regard non-Mulsims as lesser beings. Get your facts straight, don't say things that aren't true.

I never said all muslims did, its you that need to get your facts straight.

Not a training camp, but perhaps somewhere which encourages the beliefs that lead people to commit terroism.
I just can't really beleive that the people over in Saudi are too interested in "community cohesion" between muslims and non-muslims in New York when they regard all non-muslims (kuffir) as lesser beings.

You didn't say which ones do either. You said Muslims, no specification. So by logical that would mean you're addressing the whole group. So don't tell me to get my facts straight when there is no fact at hand to get straight. You on the other hand have to be more specific when refering to a said group, otherwise it comes of as as if you're refering to the whole group.

Again, Saudi Arabia as a country will KILL anyone who converts out of islam. Why would they do this if they regard non-mulsims as equals?

Where did you read/hear that? Because I've never heard about that. It is against Islamic law and teaching to kill a person, to say that they will kill a person that chooses to convert out of Islam is preposterous in every element of the term possible... Again, I'm really interested as to know where you picked that litle ''fact'' up.

[WakeUpShow]

At McZu. The world has the right image of Islam and women. and it would be pure evil of you to reject that in some countries women cannot charge rape if there is no eye witnesses, that women are constantly being beaten right out in the middle of the street for not covering up enough, that women and and young girls are forced into "honor killings", and other horrendous acts against women. But you say that we have the wrong image of Islam and women???

[mcZu]

At McZu. The world has the right image of Islam and women. and it would be pure evil of you to reject that in some countries women cannot charge rape if there is no eye witnesses, that women are constantly being beaten right out in the middle of the street for not covering up enough, that women and and young girls are forced into "honor killings", and other horrendous acts against women. But you say that we have the wrong image of Islam and women???

So because certain countries have these preposterous rules you think that is what Islam entails? This is why the world has the WRONG image. You cannot say that that is what Islam entails just because these things are happening in the Muslim world. A lot of injustice to women is happening in the non-Muslim world as well.

It is important to differentiate between the status of women in Islam and the present status of women in the Muslim world. It is also important to appreciate the vast diversity of the Muslim world, with its varying levels of adherence to Islamic injunctions, with regard to the status of Muslim women. In a world-wide population of 1.5 billion Muslims, the status of women varies from culture to culture and often within the same culture. Thus the stereotypical image of the oppressed Muslim woman with limited or no access to education is just that, a STEREOTYPE based on gross misinformation.

The bedrock of the Islamic civilization was learning and intellectual striving, and women scholars have been common from the earliest days of Islam.

Limiting women’s access to higher education either openly or by tacit discrimination as happens in some countries is a violation of Islamic injunctions. It is true that in some places, parents tend to favor their sons over their daughters. BUT this is in clear violation to the Prophetic tradition .

Social evils such as “honor” killings, domestic violence and the abuse of women exist in Muslim as well as non-Muslim cultures. They are completely anathema to the Islamic concept of justice. To associate these evils with Islam is a grave injustice to the cause of women’s empowerment and to the religion.

[mrjizzbomber]

Zu, some of these arguments of what occurs in Saudi Arabia and other predominantly Muslim countries are very valid. The generalization of those examples to all Muslims is ignorance, but they are issues which should be addressed by the global community. The integration of the Muslim religion with Western Civilization HAS seen many road blocks in many countries. It would be foolish to not acknowledge these global issues.

However, those issues have NOTHING to do with what we are talking about. American Muslims in particular should not be grouped into this generalization. American Muslims are remarkably integrated into our Western Civilization. They follow our laws over the laws of religion, which is something that can not be said about many Muslim groups across the globe. Actually, American Muslims should serve as an EXAMPLE to Muslims across the world who are facing difficulties integrating their beliefs with Western laws.

So, not only is the generalizations being made by people absurd, to place our own countrymen who have lived side by side with the "rest of us" for many years in that generalization is pitiful. Our country is founded upon the idea that people make their own legacy, and should be judged by their own actions, rather than being judged by the cultural groups they are a part of. Yet, we seem to do the opposite.

And, to the guy who raised the "where did the money come from" question. Realize this... this super-important, super-urgent funding conspiracy which determined a "dangerous Saudi" was funding the Mosque was created by Fox News. Fox News and its pundits ran all the stories about this DANGEROUS individual, they created ALL the hype about this terrorist-connected madman, they generate all the buzz about the imminent threats this man poses to our country...

...Unbelievably enough, this funding PSYCHOPATH is the largest owner of Fox News (aside from Rupert Murdoch). He owns something like 10% of the company. So, not only is their claims beyond ludicrous, but, why aren't you enraged by the funding of Fox News as well? Why don't you believe Fox News is a terrorist command center? Why don't you think, in your words, terrorists don't "have a big say in what is taught there, what materials are on display, ect.". Is it because everyone working at Fox News is white? What if it were a predominately Muslim news station? Would you call it into question then? Blame it for spreading terrorist ideals then???

Oh, and by the way, I love your "guilty before proven innocent" approach to this matter. They MIGHT spread TERRORIST MENTALITY there! Well, go protest the building of a new Church, because the priests MIGHT touch little boys bungholes.

Final question to you - do you REALLY think that community center will be involved with nefarious acts or teachings? Do you REALLY think that??? REALLY???

[fopower]

At McZu. The world has the right image of Islam and women. and it would be pure evil of you to reject that in some countries women cannot charge rape if there is no eye witnesses, that women are constantly being beaten right out in the middle of the street for not covering up enough, that women and and young girls are forced into "honor killings", and other horrendous acts against women. But you say that we have the wrong image of Islam and women???

I agree with everything mcZu said. You are choosing to judge Islam based on what is happening in "Muslim countries" instead of actually going to the source of the religion, the Quran. Alot of the injustice that is occuring in those countries is due to their terrible economic conditions. For example, if you compare India and Pakistan- one of them is a Hindu country and the other a Muslim country- they are dealing with very similar situations. Both countries are very poor, they have corrupt governments, etc. and as a result the people in both countries deal with very similar injustices. The women also live very similar lives in both countries. Thus, the injustic and oppression is not rooted in Islam, but rather in the economic state of the Muslim countries.

On a side note: I happen to be a Muslim female, and believe me if I wasn't absolutely sure of my rights within this religion I wouldn't be Muslim. I did my reasearch and studied the Quran and prophetic stories, instead of basing my opinion off of what the media threw at me.

[mrjizzbomber]

At McZu. The world has the right image of Islam and women. and it would be pure evil of you to reject that in some countries women cannot charge rape if there is no eye witnesses, that women are constantly being beaten right out in the middle of the street for not covering up enough, that women and and young girls are forced into "honor killings", and other horrendous acts against women. But you say that we have the wrong image of Islam and women???

I agree with everything mcZu said. You are choosing to judge Islam based on what is happening in "Muslim countries" instead of actually going to the source of the religion, the Quran. Alot of the injustice that is occuring in those countries is due to their terrible economic conditions. For example, if you compare India and Pakistan- one of them is a Hindu country and the other a Muslim country- they are dealing with very similar situations. Both countries are very poor, they have corrupt governments, etc. and as a result the people in both countries deal with very similar injustices. The women also live very similar lives in both countries. Thus, the injustic and oppression is not rooted in Islam, but rather in the economic state of the Muslim countries.

On a side note: I happen to be a Muslim female, and believe me if I wasn't absolutely sure of my rights within this religion I wouldn't be Muslim. I did my reasearch and studied the Quran and prophetic stories, instead of basing my opinion off of what the media threw at me.

Agree and disagree with you here. Heres the thing... people see women being treated as lesser beings in a Muslim country and are OUTRAGED. THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN MY GOOD CHRISTIAN NATION!!!!

It DOES happen in certain Muslim nations, and it DOESN'T happen here (US). Sure, ok, fine, agree. But how do we have such short memories? How do we feel so "above" the social issues other cultures are facing? Why do we think we have always been so progressive.

The "GOOD CHRISTIANS" out there, read your history books. Remember the witch trials? The crusades? The fucking inquisition(S)? Americans, remember slavery? Remember segregation? Remember pre-woman's suffrage in America? These events happened very recently in our history. So stop acting like our culture, religion, or whatnot is SO MUCH BETTER than them!

Your ancestors fucking burned women at the stake if they were suspected for being witches! So, you can be so judgmental towards these countries which are, as fopower said, in terrible economic situations... but look at what happened to YOUR culture when YOUR culture was going through growing pains.

And, for the 10th time, if you are going to be so ignorant as to group ALL Muslims with the "worst" of them... at least be intelligent and patriotic enough to not stick American Muslims in that group.

Edit: I hope I am being clear that I agree with you that it is the countries' conditions causing real problems, not the religious teachings that you follow. I respect those, just don't buy 'em

[mcZu]

Zu, some of these arguments of what occurs in Saudi Arabia and other predominantly Muslim countries are very valid. The generalization of those examples to all Muslims is ignorance, but they are issues which should be addressed by the global community. The integration of the Muslim religion with Western Civilization HAS seen many road blocks in many countries. It would be foolish to not acknowledge these global issues.

I'm not condoning the fact that there are road blocks in a lot of Muslim countries. The fact that people are living under conditions which cannot be considered either humane or appropriate is true. However, it enrages me when people link these actions to either religion or ethnicity and lable it to be evil actions from an evil source. Especially when people brand Islam as an evil source of injustice. It is as you said, people who generalize and only base things on what actually is happening in the Muslim world to religion or ethnicity are being ignorant. And if there is something I truly despise.. then that would be ignorance.

I agree with everything mcZu said. You are choosing to judge Islam based on what is happening in "Muslim countries" instead of actually going to the source of the religion, the Quran. Alot of the injustice that is occuring in those countries is due to their terrible economic conditions. For example, if you compare India and Pakistan- one of them is a Hindu country and the other a Muslim country- they are dealing with very similar situations. Both countries are very poor, they have corrupt governments, etc. and as a result the people in both countries deal with very similar injustices. The women also live very similar lives in both countries. Thus, the injustic and oppression is not rooted in Islam, but rather in the economic state of the Muslim countries.

On a side note: I happen to be a Muslim female, and believe me if I wasn't absolutely sure of my rights within this religion I wouldn't be Muslim. I did my reasearch and studied the Quran and prophetic stories, instead of basing my opinion off of what the media threw at me.

Agree and disagree with you here. Heres the thing... people see women being treated as lesser beings in a Muslim country and are OUTRAGED. THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN MY GOOD CHRISTIAN NATION!!!!

It DOES happen in certain Muslim nations, and it DOESN'T happen here (US). Sure, ok, fine, agree. But how do we have such short memories? How do we feel so "above" the social issues other cultures are facing? Why do we think we have always been so progressive.

The "GOOD CHRISTIANS" out there, read your history books. Remember the witch trials? The crusades? The fucking inquisition(S)? Americans, remember slavery? Remember segregation? Remember pre-woman's suffrage in America? These events happened very recently in our history. So stop acting like our culture, religion, or whatnot is SO MUCH BETTER than them!

Your ancestors fucking burned women at the stake if they were suspected for being witches! So, you can be so judgmental towards these countries which are, as fopower said, in terrible economic situations... but look at what happened to YOUR culture when YOUR culture was going through growing pains.

And, for the 10th time, if you are going to be so ignorant as to group ALL Muslims with the "worst" of them... at least be intelligent and patriotic enough to not stick American Muslims in that group.

Edit: I hope I am being clear that I agree with you that it is the countries' conditions causing real problems, not the religious teachings that you follow. I respect those, just don't buy 'em

Couldn't agree more with you. Especially on that very last part, people need to learn to respect each others beliefs. Whether you believe in them or not.

[mrjizzbomber]

Zu, some of these arguments of what occurs in Saudi Arabia and other predominantly Muslim countries are very valid. The generalization of those examples to all Muslims is ignorance, but they are issues which should be addressed by the global community. The integration of the Muslim religion with Western Civilization HAS seen many road blocks in many countries. It would be foolish to not acknowledge these global issues.

I'm not condoning the fact that there are road blocks in a lot of Muslim countries. The fact that people are living under conditions which cannot be considered either humane or appropriate is true. However, it enrages me when people link these actions to either religion or ethnicity and lable it to be evil actions from an evil source. Especially when people brand Islam as an evil source of injustice. It is as you said, people who generalize and only base things on what actually is happening in the Muslim world to religion or ethnicity are being ignorant. And if there is something I truly despise.. then that would be ignorance.

See, I'm still teetering on disagreement with you. I wish I could explain better - this isn't really my forte subject - but these problems DO have a certain link to the Muslim religion. I agree, its not that Islam is "evil" or "bad", its just... different and misunderstood. And its OK for it to be different, but because of globalization and Westernization, it sort of isn't OK for it to be different anymore... The Westernization of Islam is something that will become increasingly necessary to world peace, and I think that American Muslims can serve as a wonderful example of how this IS possible... but its just not that easy.

Muslims in france, germany, england abide by their own shariah laws which has causes issues with the governing societies there. If a muslim woman gets hit by her husband, she should see an imam, not the police. It's very much frowned upon to involve non-muslim people into the debate. Its not that this is WRONG... its just, different. And in the era of post-globalization, its not JUST different, its also unacceptable. It is from situations such as this that people misperceive Islam so gravely. They see a woman get slapped, and she says "I can't go to the police!". Americans will see this as an outrage. Truthfully, its just that the Muslim religion takes precedence, and they have different ways of handling the situation.

For Christians, we no longer "take our religion too seriously". So when the bible says something that conflicts with Western laws, we don't care - law, science, order, etc. take precedence. Muslims still take their religion VERY seriously, and when there is conflict with Western law... well, I think I've made my point.

Once again, I agree that there are misconceptions, generalizations, and all of this debate PARTICULARLY DOESN'T apply to American Muslims (who are well integrated with Western society). BUT, at the same time, you are downplaying real issues when you say that it isn't the Islam religions which causes these problems. It is. Its not as simple as the bigots make it out to be... its shouldn't be a reason to spread hate, violence, and ignorance... what our current global state needs is discussion, communication, and hard work towards making everyone live in peace.

So, just... don't try to hide that Islam is ultimately the root of these issues. Thats OK. I like where you are coming from with your arguments. I understand those arguing against you are really just relaying Fox News generated hate and typical American ignorance and arrogance, and you should continue to counter those arguments. But at the same time, I think you can have more candor in your posts, because there ARE *REAL* problems out there. Once again, that is OK.

(I know this post is really shitty, but I hope I've made by point...)

[fopower]

Zu, some of these arguments of what occurs in Saudi Arabia and other predominantly Muslim countries are very valid. The generalization of those examples to all Muslims is ignorance, but they are issues which should be addressed by the global community. The integration of the Muslim religion with Western Civilization HAS seen many road blocks in many countries. It would be foolish to not acknowledge these global issues.

I'm not condoning the fact that there are road blocks in a lot of Muslim countries. The fact that people are living under conditions which cannot be considered either humane or appropriate is true. However, it enrages me when people link these actions to either religion or ethnicity and lable it to be evil actions from an evil source. Especially when people brand Islam as an evil source of injustice. It is as you said, people who generalize and only base things on what actually is happening in the Muslim world to religion or ethnicity are being ignorant. And if there is something I truly despise.. then that would be ignorance.

See, I'm still teetering on disagreement with you. I wish I could explain better - this isn't really my forte subject - but these problems DO have a certain link to the Muslim religion. I agree, its not that Islam is "evil" or "bad", its just... different and misunderstood. And its OK for it to be different, but because of globalization and Westernization, it sort of isn't OK for it to be different anymore... The Westernization of Islam is something that will become increasingly necessary to world peace, and I think that American Muslims can serve as a wonderful example of how this IS possible... but its just not that easy.

Muslims in france, germany, england abide by their own shariah laws which has causes issues with the governing societies there. If a muslim woman gets hit by her husband, she should see an imam, not the police. It's very much frowned upon to involve non-muslim people into the debate. Its not that this is WRONG... its just, different. And in the era of post-globalization, its not JUST different, its also unacceptable. It is from situations such as this that people misperceive Islam so gravely. They see a woman get slapped, and she says "I can't go to the police!". Americans will see this as an outrage. Truthfully, its just that the Muslim religion takes precedence, and they have different ways of handling the situation.

For Christians, we no longer "take our religion too seriously". So when the bible says something that conflicts with Western laws, we don't care - law, science, order, etc. take precedence. Muslims still take their religion VERY seriously, and when there is conflict with Western law... well, I think I've made my point.

Once again, I agree that there are misconceptions, generalizations, and all of this debate PARTICULARLY DOESN'T apply to American Muslims (who are well integrated with Western society). BUT, at the same time, you are downplaying real issues when you say that it isn't the Islam religions which causes these problems. It is. Its not as simple as the bigots make it out to be... its shouldn't be a reason to spread hate, violence, and ignorance... what our current global state needs is discussion, communication, and hard work towards making everyone live in peace.

So, just... don't try to hide that Islam is ultimately the root of these issues. Thats OK. I like where you are coming from with your arguments. I understand those arguing against you are really just relaying Fox News generated hate and typical American ignorance and arrogance, and you should continue to counter those arguments. But at the same time, I think you can have more candor in your posts, because there ARE *REAL* problems out there. Once again, that is OK.

(I know this post is really shitty, but I hope I've made by point...)

I think I agree with this 100%

[mcZu]

Zu, some of these arguments of what occurs in Saudi Arabia and other predominantly Muslim countries are very valid. The generalization of those examples to all Muslims is ignorance, but they are issues which should be addressed by the global community. The integration of the Muslim religion with Western Civilization HAS seen many road blocks in many countries. It would be foolish to not acknowledge these global issues.

I'm not condoning the fact that there are road blocks in a lot of Muslim countries. The fact that people are living under conditions which cannot be considered either humane or appropriate is true. However, it enrages me when people link these actions to either religion or ethnicity and lable it to be evil actions from an evil source. Especially when people brand Islam as an evil source of injustice. It is as you said, people who generalize and only base things on what actually is happening in the Muslim world to religion or ethnicity are being ignorant. And if there is something I truly despise.. then that would be ignorance.

See, I'm still teetering on disagreement with you. I wish I could explain better - this isn't really my forte subject - but these problems DO have a certain link to the Muslim religion. I agree, its not that Islam is "evil" or "bad", its just... different and misunderstood. And its OK for it to be different, but because of globalization and Westernization, it sort of isn't OK for it to be different anymore... The Westernization of Islam is something that will become increasingly necessary to world peace, and I think that American Muslims can serve as a wonderful example of how this IS possible... but its just not that easy.

Muslims in france, germany, england abide by their own shariah laws which has causes issues with the governing societies there. If a muslim woman gets hit by her husband, she should see an imam, not the police. It's very much frowned upon to involve non-muslim people into the debate. Its not that this is WRONG... its just, different. And in the era of post-globalization, its not JUST different, its also unacceptable. It is from situations such as this that people misperceive Islam so gravely. They see a woman get slapped, and she says "I can't go to the police!". Americans will see this as an outrage. Truthfully, its just that the Muslim religion takes precedence, and they have different ways of handling the situation.

For Christians, we no longer "take our religion too seriously". So when the bible says something that conflicts with Western laws, we don't care - law, science, order, etc. take precedence. Muslims still take their religion VERY seriously, and when there is conflict with Western law... well, I think I've made my point.

Once again, I agree that there are misconceptions, generalizations, and all of this debate PARTICULARLY DOESN'T apply to American Muslims (who are well integrated with Western society). BUT, at the same time, you are downplaying real issues when you say that it isn't the Islam religions which causes these problems. It is. Its not as simple as the bigots make it out to be... its shouldn't be a reason to spread hate, violence, and ignorance... what our current global state needs is discussion, communication, and hard work towards making everyone live in peace.

So, just... don't try to hide that Islam is ultimately the root of these issues. Thats OK. I like where you are coming from with your arguments. I understand those arguing against you are really just relaying Fox News generated hate and typical American ignorance and arrogance, and you should continue to counter those arguments. But at the same time, I think you can have more candor in your posts, because there ARE *REAL* problems out there. Once again, that is OK.

(I know this post is really shitty, but I hope I've made by point...)

To a certain point I agree with you, the Muslims who are living in a country that is governed by non religious law should abide by that law. Even the Islam says so, if you're living in a non Muslim country you should try to abide by the law of said country, you cannot possible change the law into your own hands just because it's your religion. That won't work, no matter how you look at it, it just cannot work.

The fact that I'm taking the defensive side so serious is because that seems to be the only way to smack some sense into these bigots who don't know what they are talking about. After making sure that people are not ignorant anymore we can proceed to the next step which is discussing whether certain things are working in the Muslim world these days or not.

And the only link these problems have with Islam is the fact that these people either misinterpret certain concepts of this religion or that they're trying to dismiss Western law while they're living in a Western country. Which in both cases proves that the problems aren't linked with Islam, but with the people that are causing these problems. Of course one could argue that these people think that they're applying their religion in a proper manner, so the problems should be linked to that religion. However, the fact that certain people do not understand what they follow, believe in or what their beliefs entail is the actual core of the problem. Not the religion in itself.

In both cases we are right, we're just looking at it from different perspectives. Especially on the root of the problem. At least we agree on the fact that there is a problem.

[mrjizzbomber]

Yeah, well.. Republicans are fantastic at politics. They ALWAYS have a clear message, and it is ALWAYS unified. It works well, but... unfortunately, it can have very sad results. Take this issue, for example.

Democrats have a problem with fragmenting their messages, and arguing with each other on the details. The message tends to come out as incoherent and non-unified. So, it would probably seem best for me to keep my arguments simple, clear and concise as you do... it would help "our side of the argument".

But, unfortunately, I am not a politics guy. I see the problem as being much deeper than a simple message can admit to. And, just like me, I can not ignore how complex the issues really are. So, I try to convey my main points, but... I just can't sit here and not admit that some of what Irving and Cosh say is correct. But the solution isn't to be regressive in America, its to determine how we can help the rest of the world be progressive. (To me, it seems like we have some work to do at home first, which is saddening)