Bad Guy vs. Stan

[kpprasa]

I think that they're both classic songs. I just think from a though stand point- it's just unbelievable what he did with Bad Guy. Stan is more lively-no questions there, but Bad Guy chronologically gets more lyrical as the verses progress (it's incredible how he slowly built up suspense, then drops the bomb that it's Matthew, then he goes into the live narration that Embase was talking about). Then the beat changes and the last verse hits you and you get chills run down your back and you're like 'holy shit'. I guess I like the technical aspect of rap more and Bad Guy is more lyrical, but I'm obviously in the overwhelming minority.

[EminemBase]

well for nostalgia sake, very few people will ever admit that something new Em does rivals his old stuff.

Not saying Bad Guy is better, but the way we and really the culture in general have "Stan" permanently embedded in our minds will make it impossible for our mind to change its.....well, mind.

I think that in their contexts, they're both pretty much undeniably brilliant. You gotta give the man credit too. All these years and people are saying he should do a sequel to "Stan"/asking him if he ever will, and not only does he pull it off, but he manages to do it in a surprising way and easily makes it one of the best songs on the album.

Making the sequel to arguably your greatest song as an artist and putting it on the sequel to your greatest album. WHEW EM's got some fuckin balls man.

Not really...

Because the part where Matthew says "HERE COMES MY FAVOURITE LYRIC" - Feels like it's as good as "Stan" to me.

So kind of proof that the prior shit just isn't as compelling due to the fact it's written descriptively, acknowledging the 4th wall as apposed to written as the character communicating WITHIN the story.

[kkaniff]

"in "Bad Guy", Em initially is describing
things happening as Matthew as
apposed to organic thought setting
the scenes as in "Stan" and "Kim"...
this is a much more pedestrian style
which is what most rappers do...
Because of that, it can never be more
amazing than "Stan".
...
I disagree.
You aren't giving Em/Bad Guy enough credit, Matthew's description up until "chloroform rag" serves to provide dimension to the character.
Almost enough to build a realistic character profile, of course there are other narrative styles that would have done the job more elegantly but not on a 6 minute track.
Stan Mitchell, rather contrary to what everybody raves about was bland. He only serves to potray a descent into psychosis.
Matthew has personality, he is overly dramatic (as evidenced by the first verse; "left me so burnt", "drive off in the sunset") he has a sense of theatre "waiting for this moment all of my life" and "9 hours and 45 minutes now" and "I sneak vengefully" "I peaked"
And is every bit as obsessed and in love as Stan.
.....
From "chloroform rag" it just balloons into sheer psychopathic genius.

[SliK]

Bad Guy was a failed attempt at recreating its greatness.

failed? lol!

Absolutely.

[EminemBase]

"in "Bad Guy", Em initially is describing
things happening as Matthew as
apposed to organic thought setting
the scenes as in "Stan" and "Kim"...
this is a much more pedestrian style
which is what most rappers do...
Because of that, it can never be more
amazing than "Stan".
...
I disagree.
You aren't giving Em/Bad Guy enough credit, Matthew's description up until "chloroform rag" serves to provide dimension to the character.
Almost enough to build a realistic character profile, of course there are other narrative styles that would have done the job more elegantly but not on a 6 minute track.
Stan Mitchell, rather contrary to what everybody raves about was bland. He only serves to potray a descent into psychosis.
Matthew has personality, he is overly dramatic (as evidenced by the first verse; "left me so burnt", "drive off in the sunset") he has a sense of theatre "waiting for this moment all of my life" and "9 hours and 45 minutes now" and "I sneak vengefully" "I peaked"
And is every bit as obsessed and in love as Stan.
.....
From "chloroform rag" it just balloons into sheer psychopathic genius.

Yeah I agree that it adds dimension, and builds it nicely.

But to say 'I sneak vengefully' for example... this dilutes the potency of the drama or realism, because nobody would use that word and phrase in that way... other than a writer telling a story, so it stops it from connecting in quite the same way.

It's not about the character of Matthew being less compelling, just the fact Matthew is describing for the listener, creating an unintended acknowledgement that this is just a story, and that these are the words of the song creator coming through the mouth of a supposed character, as apposed to the character just expressing themselves. And when you do that, it can never be as powerful.

[S.T.A.N.]

I got confused in the last Matthew's verse with different voices. Can someone explain what was happening?

[achiles22]

"Stan", by far. No question.

Easily a more compelling work of art - in "Bad Guy", Em initially is describing things happening as Matthew as apposed to organic thought setting the scenes as in "Stan" and "Kim"... this is a much more pedestrian style which is what most rappers do...

Because of that, it can never be more amazing than "Stan". "Stan" always feels live, whether you listen to it now or 50 years from now, because it's the thoughts of the characters organically happening in communication and then live action...

It'd almost be like if Em rapped as "Stan" like... "I wrote the letter, in detail, I posted it - you never got back" as apposed to just naturally saying "I wrote you but you still ain't calling?". One is like a detached description, the other is a character communicating...

So it can never 'feel' more alive due to that.

The part where Matthew is yelling at Em and from then on is genius though. And it could have easily rivaled "Stan" if it were all in that kind of live action style.

That style is more compelling because it makes it seem as if the recording is incidental... the characters are just communicating as they would and it feels as if you're listening in on it... which is what makes it feel alive. In comparison, Matthew acknowledging the listener / that this is a song by saying things like 'I sneak vengefully' removes that effect, so now we know the character knows they are a character in a song. As apposed to them just 'living' their thoughts and actions.

I see the description of details that are happening prior to the kidnapping as thoughts that are in matthew's head as he plans his revenge...like when u think of something and go i'm gonna do this and that...so i do not see it as matthew realising that he is a character but more as an insight in matthew's plan...could not have worked as a live action as opposed to stan here we have to be able to know what happened to matthew in the missing 13 years...so considering it's background i see no other way in which em could explain to us matthew's state of mind and what drove him to take action...i find it better detailed than stan plus some of the rhymes are incredible and so effortlessly done that it just makes it incredible...

[Hamza1972]

"Stan" is a classic! A little bit better than the "Bad Guy"

[EminemBase]

"Stan", by far. No question.

Easily a more compelling work of art - in "Bad Guy", Em initially is describing things happening as Matthew as apposed to organic thought setting the scenes as in "Stan" and "Kim"... this is a much more pedestrian style which is what most rappers do...

Because of that, it can never be more amazing than "Stan". "Stan" always feels live, whether you listen to it now or 50 years from now, because it's the thoughts of the characters organically happening in communication and then live action...

It'd almost be like if Em rapped as "Stan" like... "I wrote the letter, in detail, I posted it - you never got back" as apposed to just naturally saying "I wrote you but you still ain't calling?". One is like a detached description, the other is a character communicating...

So it can never 'feel' more alive due to that.

The part where Matthew is yelling at Em and from then on is genius though. And it could have easily rivaled "Stan" if it were all in that kind of live action style.

That style is more compelling because it makes it seem as if the recording is incidental... the characters are just communicating as they would and it feels as if you're listening in on it... which is what makes it feel alive. In comparison, Matthew acknowledging the listener / that this is a song by saying things like 'I sneak vengefully' removes that effect, so now we know the character knows they are a character in a song. As apposed to them just 'living' their thoughts and actions.

I see the description of details that are happening prior to the kidnapping as thoughts that are in matthew's head as he plans his revenge...like when u think of something and go i'm gonna do this and that...so i do not see it as matthew realising that he is a character but more as an insight in matthew's plan...could not have worked as a live action as opposed to stan here we have to be able to know what happened to matthew in the missing 13 years...so considering it's background i see no other way in which em could explain to us matthew's state of mind and what drove him to take action...i find it better detailed than stan plus some of the rhymes are incredible and so effortlessly done that it just makes it incredible...

Yeah I understand what you mean, and I like it for the separation, even within the same song - the fact you have that section, which then breaks in to voice, then Em's conscience...

But I'm just saying - that's why I don't think it can ever sound as compelling. It's a stylistic choice but dramatically... it can never 'top' it in that way.

[VINTAGƎ]

Bad Guy Pros: That last verse is one of the realest, most bone chilling, honest and self aware verses I've ever heard from any rapper period. The flow was incredible, the delivery was sharp, the beat amped me up, and the lyrics were so on point.

Bad Guy Cons: Ironically, as much flack as he gets for screaming, this could have used more. Stan was absolutely enraged that Eminem ignored his letters, he dies as a result, and his brother is calm for the majority the song. Maybe Matthew is supposed to come across as cold and calculated and very matter of factly, but more emotion could have been used. Maybe not as much as the last verse, but still. It also loses points on the originality aspect as Stan was the first of its kind and all he did was replace Stan with Matthew.

Stan pros: Everything

Stan cons: Nothing

[kasia]

I think comparing these two songs makes no sence. Sure, Stan is a classsic. But Bad Guy is genius. If it came out years ago it would be his biggest song, imo.

[Cinderella Stan]

Stan

[Cortex]

Bad Guy is a phenomenal track but Stan just does it for me

[Edwin88]

Must we compare everything? Can't we just sit the fuck down and enjoy Em's music? Just once?

This!!

[Kill You]

I prefer Bad Guy only because I find it more entertaining than Stan. I'm just being real with you all. Stan bores me.