Do you believe in human nature?

[mcZu]

Yes, obviously, a lot of people are under the impression that there is a certain human nature that drives deep down in us, a force that defines us as being human. However, aside of the obvious acceptance of human nature, do you believe there is such a thing as human nature?

Wouldn't it rather be just conditioned behaviour? Obviously, aspects of human beings such as, instincts, emotions, facial expressions, and body language, are something we all share.

However, what about the ability to lie? What about the usual saying that greed is our nature? Do you believe that that is actually human nature, or rather something we, as human beings, have adopted in a later stage of existence as a trait of our behavior?

Please, try to leave religion/evolution debates out of this.

[Trimss]

Do you mean, like Karma? Conscience?

I believe in that until a certain point. If you say to a baby that stealing and killing is good, he'll think that. But one day or another he'll find out the truth and the consequences of his acts, like seing the family of one of his victims crying or something like that.

Or do you mean like, a spirit, something that makes every human different from another one?

I don't really understand bro..

And usually, people lie because they're afraid to tell the truth. Lying isn't a solution since it's really hard to keep a secret during a whole life time.

[zedzero27]

Zu is talking about "fight or flight"

Nature vs. Nurture

are we the way we have become because of Nature? (a force outside ourselves)

or

are we the way we have become because of Nuture? (a force within ourselves)

at least, I think that's what Zu is getting at...

[mcZu]

^Exactly. Al though, I was aiming at something more than just the usual nature vs. nurture debates. I'm trying to eradicate nature from the equation.

[mcZu]

^True. However, this one is different. Let me try and clarify it, 'cause it seems like no one's getting my point.

By human nature I mean the way we act. Not the way we eat, drink, fuck, feel, etc, but the way we act in certain situations. There are a set of end scenarios to certain situations that every person does, which is usually chalked up as being part of our nature.

My question to you is, do you really think that that is part of our nature as a species, as a whole, as a conglomerate, or rather just something we adopted later in our existence as the best way of acting in certain scenarios, in other terms, conditioned behavior.

[Tornado]

I believe it's mostly conditioned. Different Societies have certain unwritten rules on how to act in certain situations. Example is if a crime was committed in different areas of a city, one was in a bad 'hood and the other was in a nice middle-class area, and someone saw the crime and was asked to talk to police, there'd be a difference on whether "snitching" was acceptable. Of course it depends on the individual, but there's no doubt, that behavior was learned.

However, i do believe some elements are part of us, you will find in everybody like you already said Zu in his 1st post. We are all capable of certain things though, due to emotion, instinct etc.... but since we got these foundations of human behavior with us already, it's down to how we're nutured.

And it's funny, humans are supposed to be one of the high-ranking species right now, but never has a species had a self-destructive nature like we do, killing our own people. People talk about the world's evils like money, but that's a stupid excuse, humans get corrupted in the mind. We've lost touch with nature, most of us. Only the small tribes who live outside and stick close like a extended family can even claim to be a "raw" human, but even so, every country is trying to develop to be like the Western Civilization and the potential lifestyle you can live, like you see adverts for expensive things, and the push for that will no doubt bring more violence

So mostly i believe it's nuture cos money ain't the root of all evil. Shit like taht or even greed, lust and power brings out a person's real side. So it's easier to see a rich people for who he is or even a poor-as-shit person struggling to survive because the situations bring out your real side

[WakeUpShow]

The Conscience is one thing that almost proves the existence of God in my mind. Something or someone put this feeling in almost all of us telling us right from wrong. That can't just be natural, because the things it tells us some times are so definite.

[classthe_king]

The Conscience is one thing that almost proves the existence of God in my mind. Something or someone put this feeling in almost all of us telling us right from wrong. That can't just be natural, because the things it tells us some times are so definite.

No it doesn't lol. It's something called the Looking Glass Self where we judge ourselves off of how people react from our actions so when you do something bad and people look down on you because of it the next time your conscience will tell you not to.

[WakeUpShow]

But what causes them to look down upon your immoral actions?

[classthe_king]

But what causes them to look down upon your immoral actions?

Because that's what they were taught

[psu24]

Imo it does exist. I think feelings in certain situations and that is pretty much with you from the time your born, of course genetics also play a part. I believe all humans know between right and wrong to an extent since obviously we all agree that killing is wrong, stealing is wrong, we know there are things that just aren't the right thing to do with the only exception being the mentally handicapped. Yes we do learn a lot but everyone is born with a certain personality, the fact that most people aren't really themselves it might be hard to tell though. So all in all I think both play a factor but I think everyones born with certain instincts and a sense of "right and wrong"

[EminemBase]

Well... first of all, there is something you could define as 'human nature' but it's simply a collective way of thinking and acting, and reacting, defined by our species.

There have been many studies showing that irrespective of country, culture or class, we all share universal qualities that are unshakable and no matter how strange certain rules of society or X can look on the outset, everything usually boils down to a common ground we all share. One thing that is distinctly human is language.

Language...

It's been convincingly proven that language is an innate compulsion in humans rather than an acquired trait or an after-thought of evolution. It's in us from the start and... that's why a baby can be born anywhere and learn any language. Babies are built to learn language.

This is evident even from watching a baby. When you see a baby in a room full of adults speaking for example and you see the baby saying random words, trying to piece things together. Now, what's interesting is... babies are not just literally hearing words, remembering them and then repeating them. If they did that, they wouldn't be able to form new sentences...

Every sentence ever uttered is a new sentence and this is what shows there is an innate structure to language. There's deep, universal, genetic predispositions and underlying tram-lines to language that you can't ignore and... a baby is essentially a little language machine exercising these rules and trying to creatively express itself with new combinations of words.

Greed...

As for greed: greed is clearly not an innate human quality in my opinion. If it were then we wouldn't of gotten this far as, we're simply not fast enough, not strong enough, not scary or vicious enough to survive in the wild on our own. If we were greedy and self-serving we wouldn't of come this far.

Humans, by nature, are altruistic. It's in fact altruistic behaviour that is at the very root of human behaviour and could probably be attributed for the majority of our success as a species. The fact we can feel empathy for other human beings by putting ourselves in their shoes / by seeing ourselves as them is what is crucial to us extending each other our hands.

We've succeeded as a species with group behaviour. Social smarts. Big brains. Empathy.

Greed is a result of a monetary system. Think about it, if you take away money or strip commodities of their value, how could you possibly feel greed? how could greed as a concept even exist in your mind. If everything was abundant, free and everlasting, how could you possibly have the concept of greed. It couldn't make logical sense.

You could of course want lots of lots of something, but everybody would have access to 'lots and lots' all the time, unquestioned. Therefore we couldn't have a singular self-serving existence in the same way.

The monetary system is the bane of our existence. By putting a perceived value on food and produce, we create class and struggle and we divide each other. And think even of how we put a monetary value on human life. Take for example the fact that... we spend more money making sure a military airline is safe than we do a civilian airline...

Now, both airlines are to be used by humans but one of them (the military) is for government serving humans that are more crucial to the overall survival of 'the system' and current state of affairs. So because of that we play roulette. People simply don't step back and realize how much we do this.

We also build things to lesser standards. Not necessarily on purpose but to maximize profit. We're actually, in all probability living in a world of technology that precedes our current state by, maybe fifty years. We're constantly living in the past, because of the monetary system. It strains our progress in every sense. It divides, stifles us and pollutes us, in many ways.

So no. Greed is not innate or human nature. We've just tricked ourselves into thinking that overtime because we've forgotten what it's like to not live like it. People simply can't imagine a world without money or price tags, they seem to think it's natural. It's not natural, it's a construction. And any outside construction will have unseen and variable effects on our behaviour.

Humans are basically good, well-intentioned and altruistic. It's societal structure, money and power which corrupts our innate behaviour and creates the bloodbaths and greed fests we see around us.

Morality...

As for the source of our moral sense or 'inner guidance', it's what most would call a 'soul', except there's nothing magical or mystical about it. This feeling which we call a soul still exists but, it's simply mechanical and a product of evolution. In our brains.

We have an innate sense of right and wrong from group conditioning. Overtime we probably learned what was beneficial or not in group behaviour and for the species as a whole. We learned that by being generous to somebody, we would likely receive the same behaviour back. This has an exponential effect and thus grows our sense of beneficial behaviour.

So, it's that kind of conditioning that I mean that probably shaped our moral reasoning not to mention a simple golden rule we all know of 'do to others as you'd do to you'. Religion likes to think it was the originator of this rule when in fact it's philosophical and is clearly an innate human sense.

It all boils down to logic. Logically speaking, if you want other human beings to be nice to you, you would assume that you would have to be nice to them. That assumption is probably not an assumption but more so a proven fact overtime as, it's easier. And what's easier and beneficial, wins.

I know you said not to bring evolution and religious debates into it. Which I didn't. I kept it very minimal. But if you're going to ask about human nature it's simply a very big ask to expect absolutely no mention of either since, they're both crucial conversation points in respects to morality.

So yes, there are many things about us that make us human and separate us from the animal kingdom. Though, I say that loosely as we are still technically animals and basically 'brilliant Apes'. But, the biggest thing of course that makes us human... ?

Consciousness...

The ability to be aware of ourselves is without a doubt the biggest thing that makes us human. The ability to empathize with each other and comprehend our own existence.

Now, in all actuality - even though it's assumed, we don't truly know which animals are conscious or not. We simply assume we're pretty much the only one since we can deviate from our instinct, and analyze it where as most animals cannot. But whichever ones can and to whatever degree clearly cannot do so to the degree humans can, we're way way out in front.

Elephants for example though can: empathize not only with other elephants but with other species. Which is pretty amazing indeed. There have been examples of elephants helping humans and there's also a classic mirror test to determine if an animal is aware of itself...

Basically, a mark is put on the animal that is visible only in a mirror. When the animal sees the mark in the mirror, depending on whether they touch it on themselves or the mirror indicates (probably) if they are aware of themselves or not. Cats and dogs, touch the mirror - as they assume they are seeing another dog, and seeing the mark on that dog.

Elephants however, touch the mark on themselves. Showing they are aware, of themselves.

It does appear that a huge brain creates the rise of consciousness but again, we don't really know how conscious other animals are. And we can't measure it. There may be degrees of it as... Dolphins for example have sex for pleasure and also play for fun. So this kind of indulgent behaviour indicates they are in fact aware of and able to deviate from their instincts somewhat.

I do also think that consciousness tricks us all into thinking we have more control over everything than we actually do though. I could for example right now kick a window through if I wanted to, randomly... or I could throw shit at my bedroom wall or take all my clothes off or any number of actions. But, I won't. And why won't I... because there's enough instinctual rebel against that kind of thing which sees no sense in it... yet I COULD right? but... I won't.

I think people also assume they have much more control over their outlook and personality than they do. So much evidence points to so much of your build-up being innate and genetic. Your chance brain structure is responsible for how you see the world and chance meetings can determine so much also. I think that in many instances 'free will' is in fact an illusion and... just a luxury. It's like a free gift given to us by evolution for being so smart, it's like an added bonus.

But, let's say you for example go into the fridge to get a drink and you see Coke or Milk. Let's say you deliberate between the two a little while and eventually go for Coke. Now that may feel like a free choice but how free really was it? maybe your mind was already made up, maybe you were always going to choose milk because it contains certain qualities and vitamins that your body was thirsting at that time and even though the Coke was there as a speculative choice... you were never going to pick it.

That kind of thinking is, academic and largely unsolvable, at least right now. But, it's food for thought if nothing else.

[christalgurl]

I do think there are certain things that are a part of human nature, regardless of where you live or anything like that. For instance, everyone wants to be loved and needed, to feel special and important. It's a part of our nature. We want to feel good about ourselves. Now, of course, depending on where you live, what is acceptable or what is "right" will vary and will probably cause you to develop certain "learned" behaviors. However, at the core of almost every learned behavior, there's going to be a need in our human nature that that behavior is trying to fulfill. I think we have both a "human nature" and certain behaviors we've developed throughout our lives. There's not just one or the other.

[psu24]

Agree Embase with just about every point you made lol I'd be a fool to argue against that argument even if I dsagreed though. Only a couple of points i'd argue. As far as greed I'm with you that without the monetary system greed wouldn't be as prevalent but that still doesn't change that people would still have possessions. The people that are greedy are that way because they have. They don't know what it's like to "have" to work hard for everything it's just their norm and they can't see it any different. Also, while there's not really a point in arguing this because there's really not a lot of data out there in support of one side or the other but imo people have almost full control over their thoughts and emotions. Now are humans born with certain instincts? Sure. I'd also say that there is a true right and wrong and from the day we are born we have that with us. Now you stated that we are conditioned and learn over time and basically stated that we act a certain way towards each other because that is the easiest way to survive. Why for example is stealing something even if it isn't of value wrong? Why do people feel bad lying or deceiving even if that person would never find out? I'm not attacking any of your points just trying to see why you feel that way about those couple topics.
-and my bad if it looks like a bunch of shit jumbled together just got off work and tired as shit.

[WakeUpShow]

But what causes them to look down upon your immoral actions?

Because that's what they were taught

But their parents taught them, who's parent's taughts them and so on and so on...but where did it start?