Debate on Abortion (EminemBase vs. Cosh)

[EminemBase]

I made a thread asking if anybody would like to debate me on something.

Cosh responded saying he'd like to debate me on abortion (he's pro-life).

So this is the thread to commence that. Obviously we can't stop other people posting in here but, @Cosh - let's just respond only to each other so it's truly a one on one debate.

And, no double posting. So, one response each at each other, in continuation.

Since you picked the topic and are pro-life, I'll let you make your opening statement arguing against abortion. Be as clear as you can, and let's refrain from personal insults, go...

[WakeUpShow]

Well I don't want to sound unintelligent, because I know how informed you probably are but...

First of all, I'd like to start with my non-fact based argument. It's not that child's fault he was concieved by irresponsible parents, the parents should deal with the consequences not make the fetus deal with them.

All chromosomes are obviously present at the moment of conception. The fetus kicks and moves around by week 7. By week 10-11, the child has a full nervous system and circulation, and can grasp things in his/her hand. The baby can even dream by week 17. So to me, claiming this fetus is a pile of cells and not a living being is foolish. And as humans, don't we consider killing living things immoral? (aside from the obvious livestock and such haha)

[EminemBase]

First of all, I'd like to start with my non-fact based argument. It's not that child's fault he was concieved by irresponsible parents, the parents should deal with the consequences not make the fetus deal with them.

All chromosomes are obviously present at the moment of conception. The fetus kicks and moves around by week 7. By week 10-11, the child has a full nervous system and circulation, and can grasp things in his/her hand. The baby can even dream by week 17. So to me, claiming this fetus is a pile of cells and not a living being is foolish. And as humans, don't we consider killing living things immoral? (aside from the obvious livestock and such haha)

Well, in regards to the abortion 'limit', as in, the weeks of development in which you're legally allowed to have an abortion, I think that's a side-debate.

I'm pro-choice given that the fetus is not developed enough to conceive of its own existence or seriously considered to be living, breathing life as we think of a human being.

What I don't agree with is people who are absolutely black / white NO ABORTION - that's an irrational standpoint and I think it's fundamentally driven by ignorance. As people have it in their head, as soon as a woman is pregnant, that = a child. Which is not true.

If you're totally pro-life, regardless of weeks of development, then why are you not against condoms too? (or, are you?) do you think people should conceive every time they have sex? if development is irrelevant then isn't it also cruel to shoot sperm into rubber, tissue, whatever?

Fact is, it's not life until a certain point. And aborting a would-be child and therefore refraining from bringing life into the world that would probably be badly cared for due to it being unwanted, I think THAT is more morally right and worth applauding, and responsible, than going ahead with the birth of a child that is not wanted. And giving it a relatively poor quality of life because of a well-intended, yet misguided attempt at a moral decision, rooted in ignorance. And that is irrational.

So if it's just the week limit you have an issue with, we don't really disagree. As I'm for making sure the life is not of a certain development before aborting, as I think are any logical people who are pro-choice. However, a 'no abortion full-stop' standpoint, is different.

[WakeUpShow]

First of all, I'd like to start with my non-fact based argument. It's not that child's fault he was concieved by irresponsible parents, the parents should deal with the consequences not make the fetus deal with them.

All chromosomes are obviously present at the moment of conception. The fetus kicks and moves around by week 7. By week 10-11, the child has a full nervous system and circulation, and can grasp things in his/her hand. The baby can even dream by week 17. So to me, claiming this fetus is a pile of cells and not a living being is foolish. And as humans, don't we consider killing living things immoral? (aside from the obvious livestock and such haha)

Well, in regards to the abortion 'limit', as in, the weeks of development in which you're legally allowed to have an abortion, I think that's a side-debate.

I'm pro-choice given that the fetus is not developed enough to conceive of its own existence or seriously considered to be living, breathing life as we think of a human being.

What I don't agree with is people who are absolutely black / white NO ABORTION - that's an irrational standpoint and I think it's fundamentally driven by ignorance. As people have it in their head, as soon as a woman is pregnant, that = a child. Which is not true.

If you're totally pro-life, regardless of weeks of development, then why are you not against condoms too? (or, are you?) do you think people should conceive every time they have sex? if development is irrelevant then isn't it also cruel to shoot sperm into rubber, tissue, whatever?

Fact is, it's not life until a certain point. And aborting a would-be child and therefore refraining from bringing life into the world that would probably be badly cared for due to it being unwanted, I think THAT is more morally right and worth applauding, and responsible, than going ahead with the birth of a child that is not wanted. And giving it a relatively poor quality of life because of a well-intended, yet misguided attempt at a moral decision, rooted in ignorance. And that is irrational.

So if it's just the week limit you have an issue with, we don't really disagree. As I'm for making sure the life is not of a certain development before aborting, as I think are any logical people who are pro-choice. However, a 'no abortion full-stop' standpoint, is different.

I'm not against condoms, but I do think sex should wait for marriage because you're settled and ready for the change in relationship that sex brings. Devolpment is not irrelevant because life starts when the sperm hits the egg, to put it bluntly. So being responsible, in my eyes, is using protection.
You have to realize though, the majority of women having abortions aren't having them because they want to keep the child from a maybe dreadful existence. Most of the time, it's selfish, and it's because they don't have time for it or they want to continue the lifestyle they currently live. If they are completely sure they couldn't give this child a quality life, there's always adoption, right?

P.S. Just because I child isn't aware of it's existence in the womb, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve the right to develop into a person who DOES realize his existence.

[EminemBase]

life starts when the sperm hits the egg, to put it bluntly.

No it doesn't.

I realize that this is the essential point in which a baby arguably 'begins' to grow, but this is simply one crucial stage. You may as well say life begins in the ballsack.

If life is not aware of itself or feels no significant pain, there is no cruelty involved and it's not immoral. All you're doing is canceling the process a little further down the line.

An alternative to that, is to wear a condom. That of course simply stops it happening all together, but the fact you make a distinction between that and aborting 'life' at the earliest of stages shows you're inventing a moral barrier that is irrational, and emotional. Not truth.

So being responsible, in my eyes, is using protection. You have to realize though, the majority of women having abortions aren't having them because they want to keep the child from a maybe dreadful existence. Most of the time, it's selfish, and it's because they don't have time for it or they want to continue the lifestyle they currently live. If they are completely sure they couldn't give this child a quality life, there's always adoption, right?

Aborting a child because you don't want it, or have no time for it, is not selfish.

You know what's selfish? knowing that, and KEEPING the child. As you have the conscious knowledge that you do not truly want nor want to care for the child you are about to bring into existence, and yet do it regardless. Nothing could be more selfish.

It's irrelevant why the woman is aborting, the woman is a conscious human being, where as a fetus at its most early development stages, is not. You're not depriving a would-be child of existing anymore than you would be if you wore protection.

Yes there's adoption but as any adopted child will probably tell you, it's not the same. We feel a biological bond with our 'real' parents which is why adopted children often intuitively feel that something is not right even without being told.

So it's far more selfish to subject a child to an abnormal upbringing and significant, emotional difference than it is to simply abort the would-be child in the first place. Most people think of this as immoral as they're connecting the vision of an actual baby to the abortion process.

You're no more killing a child or stopping a life than you are if you decide to fuck a woman, to get her pregnant, then decide against it in a moment's thought. The only difference is the lapse in time, the stage at which you 'abort' the process.

Stabbing a baby to death as it comes out of its mother's womb is killing it. Aborting a barely developed fetus, is not.

P.S. Just because I child isn't aware of it's existence in the womb, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve the right to develop into a person who DOES realize his existence.

I see. And yet you're FOR protection?

Do you not think that a sperm that WOULD develop into a person if ejected into a female's vagina, and not blocked by a rubber protective deserves that right too? you're having your cake and eating it by making a distinction that exists only in, your, head.

Your distinction is irrational based on the idea that at only at X point are you dealing with something that can be considered human. If it's not conscious, or truly life, or human as we think of it - then it's nothing.

It's a 'would-be' child sure, but so is sperm in a man's balls. Are you against masturbation and wasting sperm on your belly? you may as well be.

[AbramIsaac]

While many people that believe life starts at conception aren't necessarily against condoms, by their own logic, they MUST be against the birth control pill.

While the condom prevents sperm from escaping, the pill is designed to keep the egg from coming down the tubes. However, sometimes it does, and the egg is fertilized. Phase two comes in when the pill tries to keep the egg from attaching to the uterine wall, but sometimes that happens anyway. Phase three of the birth control pill comes along when it forces the monthly cycle, and the fertilized egg is cast out from the body. This will often happen without the pill as well.

That's why I think it's crucial to make the distinction between a fertilized egg and an actual fetus. The embryo is no more sentient than a germ. Regardless of what it may eventually become, at this point in the game there is no cruelty involved from my perspective.

However, aborting a fetus holds different moral implications, based on what it may or may not feel.

[EminemBase]

^ Welcome back, logic.

Anyway, yes, I agree and I've been using the word fetus slackly. I'm not well-informed on the developmental stages of birth and pretty lazily slung around a few terms in my response.

The rational basis and foundation of my argument stands, and remains intact though.

But yes, as I said earlier, I'm all for defining a proper 'cutting-off' point (as I think pretty much anybody is) on when you can and cannot abort, and when something is truly life or not, based on whatever aspects are the most easily definable and sane. And apparent.

The fetal stage apparently starts at 11 weeks. Or 9 weeks after fertilization. And isn't the limit 20 something weeks?

So maybe that needs to be looked at but, that's a side-debate as... most who are against abortion in the way that Cosh seems to be are so in a black / white sense. And don't just have an issue with the current time limit, so that seems a little irrelevant when debating somebody who is on that side.

I'm definitely for examining the science and setting an appropriate limit though.

There are still the always obvious double-standards due to it being human life too, which, should never be left out of discussion. As it's a glaring contradiction fueled by humanity's sense of self-importance. Which, in a sense, is somewhat justified. Given that we're the pray of nothing, have the biggest brains, are aware of our existence, can extend empathy outside of our species and many other special attributes which are shared often only partially by a handful of other species we currently know of.

But still, when we're talking about more primitive life in the womb, it's still inflated of humans (although natural) to give ourselves exaggerated privilege.

[iain08]

I like all the formal rules.

[EpicForever]

Wow what an intense debate!

[AbramIsaac]

Oftentimes, in the case of incest or rape, there is wiggle room for moderate conservatives.

Do you believe life begins at conception? If so...

What do you think about the birth control pill?

[SeriallyIller]

How is abortion,any different from masterbation?

[Fleka]

How is abortion,any different from masterbation?

Oh, the stupidity.


I don`t know how to feel about abortion. It is not right to end a life and not give it a chance. But then, when you see how kids are treated and the way they live and the people that are their parents, maybe it would be better if they were never been born.

[J.R.]

How is abortion,any different from masterbation?

Oh, the stupidity.


I don`t know how to feel about abortion. It is not right to end a life and not give it a chance. But then, when you see how kids are treated and the way they live and the people that are their parents, maybe it would be better if they were never been born.

Word to this.

And the fact that sometimes abortion or a fucked up life for the parent is the only choices must be considered.