Freewill debate.

[CrashBand]

I'm relatively new to the debate.

Care to share your two cents..

[CrashBand]

I'm also aware there is a lot of neuro scientific research that is starting to disprove Class's version of free will.

There have been tests that show we can determine what a subject will choose before they do by looking at scans of their brain.

[Willy]

Cooking dinner at the moment. Here is a video I watched that opened my eyes to the debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufkrJkVqems

Though like the top comment states, I think that the other laws would affect the choice of environment . Let me know what you think. There are a lot of articles/videos dedicated to this topic, as its been a great philosophical debate for a while. I'm done researching it as I"m scared of what I might believe, which ultimately doesn't matter if what I might believe turns out to be true... but I value my sanity. Cheers.

Another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQxJi0COTBo I like my soul tho

[CrashBand]

Cheers Will watch tonight.

I'm done researching it as I"m scared of what I might believe

Well even if free will is an illusion I think it is still important that people are still believing in it.

It's how our society functions. Justice is the main example of needing the illusion of free will to have a society with moral responsibility.

[CrashBand]

Still waiting to hear EminemBase on the matter..

[Alex2012]

about what I know, free will is a biblical thing, like God gave it to us, implying he can't be responsible for all our bad choices.

Believers or not, human beings can choose, i mean i can choose to kill a fly or not, the animals can't choose, it's the reason we say sometimes they are better than us because all their acts are driven by the laws of the nature/physics.

I will say we are more influenced by our parent's education than the laws of the physics.

Crashband you didn't tell it but I feel like if you said, all is already written and we can't have any effects on our own life, like if no matter what we are going to do we can't change the things.

[SliK]

I will say we are more influenced by our parent's education than the laws of physics.

[CrashBand]

Crashband you didn't tell it but I feel like if you said, all is already written and we can't have any effects on our own life, like if no matter what we are going to do we can't change the things.

A common misconception is that determinism must equal fatalism. Which is just not the case.

Fatalism means, as you said, 'all is written'. Deterministic stuff just means that choices have all these prior causes.

Like if you choose to go to McDonalds. This is because you are hungry, Mcdonalds exists, Mcdonalds is open, you like Mcdonalds etc etc. All these things that we have no control over. Constraints, if you will.

The argument for us having is some free will is that we can choose to go somewhere else. I think this is an illusion and we have no free conscious control over decisions.

Wouldn't mind hearing someone well informed with an opinion on the matter though..

[Alex2012]

l think the biblical free will and the free will you talk about are two different things though

so from a scientific point of view l found that interesting

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... ly-be-free

make me feel a bit like a robot, so if l kill someone tomorrow that won't be my fault...

[CrashBand]

make me feel a bit like a robot, so if l kill someone tomorrow that won't be my fault...

yeah pretty much.

That's the hard truth that science has shown us and people will slowly come to realise.

Will shape the way we view morals, justice and compassion.

[EminemBase]

Okay so, in regards to the idea of 'free will'...

I haven't studied the particular theories regarding the question within philosophy much, though I am aware of the general lines of reasoning. But I have sort of, inadvertently studied the idea through other science as I've watched quite a few lectures and done a lot of listening and thinking in regards to the genetic structure and functioning of the brain, and how humans operate in general.

Aside from that, I have tended to think about this question a lot in my spare time; it just tends to naturally pop into my mind all the time as I often notice instances in which the apparent free will is not as it seems, and so I tend to dissect actions and try and figure it all out.

In short: I think the conclusion that I've come to (at least for now) is that free will is a pretty spectacular illusion mostly fronted by consciousness. I think consciousness and awareness of self and one's own thoughts gives the impression that you are creating or controlling those thoughts, when in reality it's more like an observation; an observation of self, you're watching yourself run.

On the face of it, saying that it's an illusion may seem a little unsatisfying to the average person when you think of the mountains upon mountains of choices you're faced with and 'choose' on a daily basis; but I think the truth is, you DO have choices, and ARE making them, but you're not making the choices on a conscious level, no more than a computer reacting to a virus chooses to react. I think that our analytical bases and awareness of choice and computation are so staggeringly complex and beautifully evolved that we have this 'LIVE' feeling...

I know that still, many reading this will be almost, angered by the notion that 'they' aren't controlling what they do but what I think is that the conscious us and ego and all of our emotions tying us into 'self' are bothered by the realization that they aren't, fully, in charge. I mean, we are in charge in the sense... we all have unique genetic structures and circumstances which lead to unique choices, it's just that we make our choices before we know we've made them. So we aren't truly consciously choosing, as we'd like to think. And we control nothing outside of ourselves.

There was actually a test done whereby they monitored this guy's brain and asked him to pick a colour, out of like two choices; and, they knew which colour he had picked (on the MRI machine) BEFORE (six seconds prior!) he was consciously aware of what he wanted to choose.

So I think evidence such as that shows what I mean; although a choice is being made, the 'us' we think of as us aka the conscious us, isn't making it. It's simply becoming aware of the choice that has been made, before 'we' are aware of it. So free will as we think of it, is an illusion.

Then you have to take in to account the fact that... we don't truly have infinite choices or freedom as we're all tailored in a certain way. Our genes, and our unique brain structures, and our upbringings and our surroundings (ALL outside of our control) heavily influence the people we become and therefore heavily influence the types of choices we'd even veer towards. All of these things and more things outside of our control set a pathway of limited choice paths with different outcomes (of which we can't see beyond maybe, a few steps; which in themselves can be easily outlandishly incorrect, corrupted or changed by new changes to circumstance etc. etc.) which shape our personal realities, perceptions and continue to influence our choices, opinions and so on.

So, we do have choices but, I think not as much choice as we'd like to think. And it's not that choice is a total illusion; just that conscious choice is a total illusion, and the idea of having limitless paths or total freedom, is an illusion, all fronted by consciousness. I think the truth is that we choose before we know we've chosen, and then become aware of the choice, and feel that is free will.

[SliK]

I like how clearly you explain things, I was trying to explain pretty much what you said in that post to someone today and just made a mess of it. I might read her a couple of paragraphs from that tbh. I agree with you though, 100%

[EminemBase]

I like how clearly you explain things, I was trying to explain pretty much what you said in that post to someone today and just made a mess of it. I might read her a couple of paragraphs from that tbh. I agree with you though, 100%

Thanks man, I still tend to repeat myself a lot though lmao. It's because I am genuinely trying really hard to get what I genuinely feel, on to the page... so I keep repeating points to try and emphasize it in a new way, but yeah, freewill is a head fuck but, that's what I think anyway.

[CrashBand]

Free will is such a head fuck.

I fully understand it but it is such a strong illusion that it is hard to come to grips that we have no conscious authorship for our decisions.

[CrashBand]

Thanks man, I still tend to repeat myself a lot though lmao.

Yeah that's may only criticism.

Although I agree with SliK. You are very thorough and rational, that's why I wanted to hear your two cents.