Freewill debate.

[CrashBand]

I mean, there's been fucking tests where the experimenter know's the decision someone is going to make before the subject consciously makes it.

[classthe_king]

It's not semantics lol. We literally have no control over what we think about.

There's the outside factors that we have no control of, that you mentioned. Being hungry, being tired etc.

Then there's making decisions where we have no conscious control of either. eg. 'Peanut Butter over Jam' or 'not to eat for another 5 minutes'. (although it seems like we do).

You don't have any conscious control of the decision not to eat. What made you think 'not to eat for another 5 minutes'. Why not 10 minutes. Why not Honey.

It's an incoherent idea, lmao.

We don't need to have conscious control of it to have control of it. Our brain is the one doing the thinking. Our brain is us. Therefore we are the ones doing the thinking. No outside influence made me sign in here and respond to you. I did it because I wanted to.

[CrashBand]

It's not semantics lol. We literally have no control over what we think about.

There's the outside factors that we have no control of, that you mentioned. Being hungry, being tired etc.

Then there's making decisions where we have no conscious control of either. eg. 'Peanut Butter over Jam' or 'not to eat for another 5 minutes'. (although it seems like we do).

You don't have any conscious control of the decision not to eat. What made you think 'not to eat for another 5 minutes'. Why not 10 minutes. Why not Honey.

It's an incoherent idea, lmao.

We don't need to have conscious control of it to have control of it. Our brain is the one doing the thinking. Our brain is us. Therefore we are the ones doing the thinking. No outside influence made me sign in here and respond to you. I did it because I wanted to.

Ah, the old Holistic approach.

Since your unconscious is 'part of you' we have free will / moral responsibility.

But it's the equivalent of a failing heart. Is it our fault that our heart is failing? Our heart is us. Our heart is the one keeping us alive. No outside influences.

It doesn't bring free will and moral responsibility.

Yes, you did it because you wanted to. But you couldn't influence or control not wanting to. Just like a failed heart.

[CrashBand]

I'd say we have freewill, but it's too limited with weaknesses, fetishes, appetites and similar human limitations, but most of the time, you get to make your own decision. If I'm hungry, I might decide to perform some sort of a food strike that will make me not eat until I fall, that's a conscious decision. Or maybe I can go eat, or maybe I'll decide to wait for some of my friends to come over so we'll go to some restaurant and eat there. It's all in the freewill bruh.

That's the exact thing I'm arguing we don't have and is an illusion in the previous posts.

Literrally set out the same example.

[classthe_king]

Ah, the old Holistic approach.

Since your unconscious is 'part of you' we have free will / moral responsibility.

But it's the equivalent of a failing heart. Is it our fault that our heart is failing? Our heart is us. Our heart is the one keeping us alive. No outside influences.

It doesn't bring free will and moral responsibility.

Yes, you did it because you wanted to. But you couldn't influence or control not wanting to. Just like a failed heart.

Yeah, maybe you should have eaten less big macs haha jk

But you're basically saying. We don't have freewill because all of our decisions can be traced back to out unconscious and we don't have direct control of our unconscious. I think that's pointless and doesn't detract from free will. Yeah we can't control how our body feels or what random thoughts pop up into your head but you can control how you react to those facts and how you let them influence you and that's where the freewill comes in. Honestly, I would only believe we don't have freewill if it was somehow proven that some diety is controlling everything and is the force behind every one of our decisions but I know you don't believe in that.

[CrashBand]

We don't have any control.

We can't control how we react to our thoughts lol.

The buck doesn't stop.

A thought comes into your head - you have no authorship of how you're going to react.

Why did this thought make you chose X. Why did a thought make another person chose Y.

You don't have any control over how you are going to react, what your intentions will be from certain information, what thoughts you have.

We don't have free will. But we are under a very strong illusion that we are consciously making decisions.

[classthe_king]

Well I think we do have control and it's honestly as simple as that.

[CrashBand]

Perhaps agree to disagree.

But we don't. And I don't know how you can show that we do. It's an incoherent idea.

But I'd recommend watching Sam Harris talking about it.

[classthe_king]

I assume you're just reiterating what Sam Harris says so I'd probably disagree with him as much as I do you. I'll look it up though.

[CrashBand]

Yeah pretty much. He's just better spoken.

[Unlyricallyrics]

Everything we do has a cause. We have zero control over what we do or think. Everything that happens was bound to happen when universe was born, including our thoughts and actions. There is no valid counter argument to this (excpet religion which isnt rly valid) and it's the most plausible theory. What makes humans so different from rocks for instance. We are just atoms, and we dont have any control over particles in our body, or brain for that matter.

[CrashBand]

^ *golf clap*

Although I don't think you can go as far as saying "everything was bound to happen". Sounds a little close to fatalism.

[Unlyricallyrics]

Yea but our "fate" isnt anything that is determined by anything supernatural like god. It's merely the thing that is going to happen, no matter what, in the future because of previous stuff that happened.
If you throw something in air it's bound to come down (provided there's gravity). Only think of this in a larger scale.

Big bang -> x -> x -> x -> etc..................................... -> me posting this -> x -> etc...

Only more complex with shitload of things happening.

[CrashBand]

Yeah but fate is saying that you were always going to post that, regardless. Which is not the case.

[Unlyricallyrics]

No, that's exactly the case. Me posting that had it's reasons. And those reasons had their reasons. Which again had their reasons, and this goes way back to the birth of the universe.
Think of it like this. If you could go back in time, let's say 200 years and just waited 200 years until it's present day (you dont die for some reason) wouldnt everything happen exactly as it did? Let's say you dont change anything you just observe. Then when in present day you go back in time 200 years again, and do the same thing. And again and again etc. Wouldnt everything happen exactly like it happened, every time?