A Few of My Card Magic Performances

[Eedee]

I agree with you with sleight of hand.

However, since he had that TV show, I feel like he had to use all those big props for flash and show. I read his book he wrote about his early days and shit, he loves sleight of hand and he appreciates the art of magic. So he's not all about the flash and show. He's very humble too.

[EminemBase]

@Slik, I cba to write a book response to that initial post like I was going to, think what you want fam and you're right, I can't convince you that you like him. However, you said you're not a moron... well, first of all, you're trying so hard to prove to me you're not stupid... but you are a moron IF you don't understand that no, you don't know the magnitude of Derren's skill and his techniques as a magician. I DO, as I've been doing it most my life and actually, yes, with some things I would need to tell you what he's doing - I'm not talking about the 'psychological manipulation' or things he dresses up as that, I mean routines he's built around really ingenious subtle uses of classical magic technique which eliminates choice but looks perfectly like a choice... not brainwashing or 'control', just really clever lateral ideas which give an illusion of choice but which are in fact heavily planned and acted around and talked around to make seem natural... no, you don't know those things, and I could show you tricks of his where you have no fucking clue at all what he's doing...

Woah wait a minute... Do you genuinely believe that is unique to magic? Like, seriously, are you going to claim that in the same paragraph you call me a moron?

lollllllllll

Well you have... special effects which are intended to make things which aren't real look real, and of course fiction of all kind... but in terms of... I mean, movies period do that...

But in terms of... techniques and very thought-out exploitation's of everyday assumptions to create the illusion of something happening, which can't, masked by normalcy... do I believe that is unique to magic... ? Pretty much yeah, that's why it's got a title... magic, lmfao, as that's what that is, that's what giving a title to a 'thing' which is only that thing is...

If you mean, ingenuity or impressive skill... obviously skill is not unique to magic lmao, but OBVIOUSLY I'm not saying magicians are the only people who are talented, and of course you know I'm not. So I don't understand your point there.

I mean, comedy exploits every day assumptions and works on surprise... a little bit like magic, but in terms of thinking of really lateral ways of making something look identical to something it's not, to look like you achieve something impossible... yeah, I would call that magic.

I'm not saying you have to like him, but some of the things you've said such as him just praying on susceptible people... lol, no, and that is moronic. He came-up as a close-up magician. Close-up magicians do things that will work on 90% of people, they have to work on everybody because you never know who you may be doing a trick on... Derren is an incredibly skilled magician, creator of new technique and routines and one of the best showmen in the history of it... and for you to know NOTHING about it and dismiss it all as nonsense or compare it to porn is incredibly arrogant and also shows your youth. You're so up your own ass that you think your perspective is more realistic than the reality. I would never call an entire hobby or art talentless unless I had a basic understanding of the fundamentals of it... to make that call. You don't have even a basic understanding of basic magic or know what goes in to it. So it's a really stupid thing to dismiss one of the beat at it, when all you're doing is selectively judging some moments of him that annoy you.

@ The bolded part: I don't deny he's the best magician. I also don't deny that he's certainly created a new lane in the field which alone (in any field) is impressive. I don't deny he is good at what he does, or his talent, or his ingenuity. I haven't said anything of the sort in fact. I just don't fucking like him, because the shit he claims to do is BS. I don't like watching something and have him claim it is more than it really is. despite what you may think (or want to believe) he does this. He thinks he is a big deal, because people like you perpetuate that. To me it isn't impressive in the slightest and I have seen literally hours and hours of his footage.

You have said those things though... you've said all he does it find really suggestible people and basically anybody could do it. Which is not true and a really, really stupid thing to say. SO how have you not said those things when there's evidence all over this board of you saying them. Lol.

Again, forget hypnosis or little things like that you've seen, as that's not the Derren I'm claiming is brilliant. Have you seen a live show of his? I doubt it. His TV shows aren't very accurate portrayals of what he does, his live shows are spot on and you haven't even seen them and... most of the things he does will work on anybody, do not rely on him picking dopey or suggestive people.... hence often choosing some of the most difficult thinkers to do things on such as Stephen Fry who is an incredibly intellectual comedian... and psychologists, who he's fooled... and, the thousands of people he does routines on up and down the country for the past decade.

There's so many layers of hidden magic techniques within his shit and ways he's reinvented the wheel and, what do you mean claiming to do something he isn't... he TELLS you that he's a magician and that he's doing tricks, that nothing he does is physic, and even states right at the beginning of the show that achieves every result you'll see through a varied mixture of misdirection, showmanship, magic etc. - so how is that claiming to do things that he doesn't...

ALL magic has the claim of something impossible, obviously... but that's the point of it, it's like a game, to see if you can achieve what looks like the thing you're claiming to do, not be figured out and yet never claim it to actually be real. It's just a conundrum to be analyzed; and ALL fiction claims to be things it's not, so do you dislike all fiction? lmao!

Derren Brown does not claim to be anything other than a magician; he says what he's doing and as he says "I am dishonest, but honest about my dishonesty"... if he literally made no claims... there would be no tricks, it's called a performance. But at the end of it he's just as happy to invite you to figure out how it was done, play on that etc. so no, that's an honest and skilled performer, not a guy claiming to do something and being BS such as a TV physic or 'medium', who is an actual fraud claiming that what they're doing is real when in fact they're just using really, really lame linguistic tricks and gullble people... you seem to compare magic to that, when it couldn't be furhter from that.

No good magician or magicians ever really... ACTUALLY claim what they're doing is real, it's skill and entertainment and all 'buying in to the moment' temporarily to see something which looks like something impossible, but which we all know isn't. Just like we all buy in to the concept of a movie when we go to watch it, even though we KNOW Christian Bale is not fucking Batman. Do you get annoyed as you watch Bale? like FFS, WHAT A BULLSHITTER, YOU'RE NOT A SUPER HERO, LIES!

@The underlined part: Who are you to say I have no understanding of magic? I will be the first to admit I don't have the BEST understanding, cos I didn't dedicate my entire youth to it lmao, but I understand enough to know that in general I don't enjoy it. Like, I understand the amount of work and dedication they put into it. I understand the utter devotion you would need to put into it to get to his level and I'm not denying any of it. I just think magicians in general are so fucking overrated and he is the most acclaimed one of all so obviously I think he is the MOST overrated. Aside from talent, I hate what I have seen of HIM. Whether it's just a character for the stage or not, I hate him. I just don't like the cunt one bit. I'm not being selective about it at all, I've seen a shitload of his work and nothing at all made me go "OMFG I want to do this myself, it's awesome, this guy is amazing" etc etc and it's not because I don't understand it you dickhead, it's because my personal taste is different to yours. I also think aspiring to be a great magician is fucking stupid and as fucking dumb a career choice as porn. At least if you look good, there's money to be made in porn. I don't think it's that unusual an analogy. Neither art is respected by society in general, no matter what you think. I mean, sure, men like hot chicks who fuck on camera and people in general might like watching a magic show... but nobody wants to hear their kid say they want to do either of those things.

You can have any level of OBSERVATION to say you dislike something. At no point was I getting annoyed at you disliking magic... that IS taste and who gives a fuck, but claiming DB is talentless or it's easy etc. is things you can only claim if you know how things are done, and no, you know fuck-ALL, believe me on that one, you know nothing what so ever other than having a vague idea that there's work involved. How is that comparable to porn... do you really think porn directors spend hours on end perfecting a single fuck motion or camera angle? No, basically any one can record porn with a video camera, where as nobody can just pick up a deck of cards and 'be amazing' with them. You will look ridiculous as it's an art form and a skill set, porn isn't, porn is fucking, and recording.

Also... magic in general... yeah basically shit commercial magicians and kid's magicians have over the times made it seem tacky or shit, but the public does not have a very accurate portrayal of how somebody really invested in magic sees magic... all the magic you're probably thinking of which you find shit, I probably find shit too... it's nothing like that and anybody who sees a real magician, usually are respected and people are wow'd...

And, Derren Brown is very respected by society and all the walks of people who go and see him live, by journalists, writers; because he's an incredible narrator, comedian, storyteller, and all-around performer... I don't believe that you've seen much of him at all. Not his live stuff.

But yes he is respected and he's won a very respected stage show award for two of his past shows which is kind of like the Oscars of the theater... he is respected as a performer; people like Chris Angel and Blaine are just tossers, but DB is fuck all like them. They are NOT majorly talented, they make me feel... how you sound you feel about DB, which is why I keep saying I don't think you've watched that much of him or his live stuff... because on stage... he's endlessly light and funny and analytical and just, like a normal person doing very interesting things... not at all like this dicky 'self serious oooh look at my mystery' kind of cunt that you seem to be describing, like an Angel. Who isn't even a magician, he's just a cunt who wants to look and feel impressive, there's so little actual skill to stage magicians and their fucking lame elaborate nonsense.

And again, this 'taking himself so seriously' concept shows you can't have watched... or weren't paying attention or didn't judge his character very accurately. As I've said, interviewers have fawned over what he's done to him and he responds by downplaying what he does as 'smug guesswork', I don't see how somebody who constantly takes the piss out of himself and his flaws and downplays his entire art which he's taken decades to master... I don't see how somebody who does that takes himself too seriously. Where I live, on planet Earth, with humans... that's the exact opposite.

Anyone who gets on stage to sold out arenas take themselves seriously. Obviously (as we both know) the dude isn't a moron. he's not going to go "Yeah, I am fucking amazing. i'm smarter than you and all the idiots who watch me and have no idea what I'm doing. Those guys, which is 99% of you by the way, are a joke to me. I pray on you people and I have become a millionaire because of it".

Is that what you'd expect if he took himself seriously? Lmao? And because he downplays it he doesn't take himself seriously? Do you think when Kendrick Lamar says "don't call my album a classic, it's not a classic" do you think he doesn't take himself/his album/the art seriously?

Do you also believe everything you read?

lol

Not necessarily. Louis CK doesn't take himself seriously yet gets on a sold out stage to perform in front of people... what about... enjoying it? What about trying to create something which people find entertaining or intriguing in some way... you don't HAVE to take yourself seriously to do that, you can just be good at it but see the whole thing as an interesting experiment or 'just something you do', without being falsely modest or pretending you don't take yourself seriously.

Also, it's blindingly obvious you don't have much observation of his personality at all... I'm not talking just about things he's said in interviews @ 'everything I read', I'm talking about the hours upon hours of him on stage AS WELL AS real interviews and footage of him, and his book which I've read, all of which point to the same personality type / person - which is: an obsessive, ambitious, analytical, self-deprecating guy with actually quite low self-esteem but a... hunger for truth and figuring things out.

Derren enjoys the challenge of getting better at it, and he's also the most selfless magician I've seen in terms of... he goes out of his way to remove himself from the process as much as he can now so that the people involved look like are achieving what he is actually achieving during the performance... that's not a magician that takes himself seriously...

Derren is a huge fan of theatre and his live shows have that sense about them. He's just trying to create thrilling entertainment and reinvent the wheel, there's nothing wrong with that, there's nobility in ambition and striving for better truth and understanding, and that's all he does, which is the same as anybody doing anything they love deeply does... he has a love of magic, of watching it, of being fooled and therefore or trying to do it himself and do it really well...

He's one of the most level-headed and genuinely nice guys I've come across, his stage and TV personas... you do realizing he's PERFORMING, he has to have a certain level of being overbearing and controlling lmao, but what you're describing is not him or how people think of him at all.

Blaine takes himself too seriously, as do complete cocks like Angel. DB is a very normal, sarcastic, smart but jokey, self-depreciating British guy, who happens to be brilliant at what he does.

So go ahead and dislike Derren, who cares. But you don't know magic and don't know nearly enough to say it doesn't involve skill or an incredible amount of hard-work and thought-out ideas and real psychological analysis, the scope of which you have no fucking clue of. So try being less ignorant and realizing that you don't know it all, and in this instance, know almost nothing.

DB is the initials of both Derren Brown and David Blaine , please understand that when you abbreviate names in future, particularly if you've just referred to the other in the paragraph before lol.

Like I said, I haven't called him talentless, I've called his claims fraudulent ("I can predict lotto numbers") but I never said that he has no talent.

He doesn't make a 'fraudulent' fucking claim because he SAYS that he is a magician using trickery, he's not REALLY fucking saying that he can REALLY predict the lottery any more than Matt Greoning is saying yellow people who say silly things and live in Springfield really exist and are going through these tribulations as we watch an episode of the fucking Simpsons.

We KNOW he's a magician, and he knows that we know, so how the fuck is that fraudulent. Again, the analogy of an actor makes perfect sense here... do you consider De Niro to be making a fraudulent claim in Taxi Driver, for pretending to be a sociopath to create the illusion of that movie?

Derren is pretending he can really do that for a performance, which we all know he's going to just 'make look like he's just done that', but which we know is trickery, he knows is trickery, and he knows we know it's trickery and at no point denies that... after the trick... just like an actor wouldn't deny they weren't really a character they played. They talk about the performance, but imagine if mid movie Norton looked at the camera and said "just so you know, these are lines I'm saying, I'm not really this guy you know!"... what you're talking about is defining fiction... WITHIN ficiton...

Seems pretty moronically self-defeating.

We all know Derren is a magician, and he talks openly about that and the ways that he tricks people, and the tricks that he's done, after he's done them. So where's the fraud in that...

It actually just shows how good he is to get your back up for doing what i said he's brilliant at, which is make people analyze very regular tricks as REAL, because he talks like a normal person and puts tricks in real life context and so people get annoyed... thinking he's making a scientific claim, which he's doing intentionally to heighten the effect of the realism and its modern context...

It's a performance, of trickery and fiction, which we're all in on... just like a book is, just like a movie is... so what you're saying, makes no fucking sense. He's not claiming any of it is real lmao.

At no point after it does he say "yeah, that's real, I really did that" THAT would be a fraudulent claim. But the unspoken bond of people watching magic and us ALL knowing we're watching a piece of trickery for entertainment purposes is pretty ingrained, so it would be pretty fucking stupid if the magician kept emphasizing this was only a trick during the trick. Seriously, that point is fucking stupid.

PS. if you shoot down my 'actor / movie' analogy - go ahead and prove me wrong, prove how that's not a perfect analogy for what he does and why it's NOT fucking as stupid to say he's a fraud as it would be to call an actor a fraud , we all know movies are entertainment and nobody involved is claiming these movies are real events... similarly...we all know magic is entertainment and nobody involved, including the magician/actor is claiming these events are real'; however - they do whilst IN the ficiton/acting/movie/trick... otherwise where would the illusion / fiction take place?

Show me how movies and magic are NOT the same in that regard.
- They both make usually impossible scenarios (or attempt to) look real.
- They both acknowledge themselves as mediums by which to create fictional illusions.
- We all buy in to the fiction, and the creators do too, to enable them to try and create as realistic a potrayl of a story, effect, moment or moods as possible. For the performance/idea.
- Everybody involved - watching and creating, knows, and agrees this is fiction.
Where is the fraud...

I don't care if you don't like him, but this thing you keep doing of comparing him to a fraud or saying he's claiming this or that is really bizarre and stupid, and makes no sense.

[SliK]

Honestly I'm not even gonna read that

[CrashBand]

Derren Brown definitely takes himself seriously, lol.

Ricky Gervais is also a " arcastic, smart but jokey, self-depreciating British guy, who happens to be brilliant at what he does" but he's as egotistical as they come these days.

[Eedee]

Derren Brown definitely takes himself seriously, lol.

Ricky Gervais is also a " arcastic, smart but jokey, self-depreciating British guy, who happens to be brilliant at what he does" but he's as egotistical as they come these days.

I love Gervais. He's hilarious. I suppose that's off topic.

[CrashBand]

I love Gervais. He's hilarious. I suppose that's off topic.

Yeah same. But he definitely thinks highly of himself, as does Derren.

[Eedee]

Haven't looked much into Darren to form an opinion on him.

But Ricky sure as hell as a nice ego, but he backs it up. He's damn funny.

[EminemBase]

I love Gervais. He's hilarious. I suppose that's off topic.

Yeah same. But he definitely thinks highly of himself, as does Derren.

Naaaaaaah, that's untrue yo.

Gervais = absolutely. Gervais has lost himself up his own ass, he used to play on the smugness but the irony in his own self-delusion is unreal... he goes around saying he doesn't give a fuck what critics think as they don't matter.. but then quotes ANY positive review and blasts ANY negative review of his shit and even if the review is reasonable and fair game (like many have been about life's too short etc.)... he clearly doesn't even read it as says they're jealous and goes on his usual rant about people not understanding why a dwarf falling over is not offensive... even though the review had nothing to do with that and was just about the shitly executed jokes and shit timing, lmao! Gervais truly is a detestable and deluded cunt at the moment...

Derren Brown has never been that... where and when does he think highly of himself as I've followed him for a decade and have never seen a single real-world (you can't count acting on stage in an over the top persona) example of it - for a living, he acts as a hyper-confident-hyper-smug version of himself... as does every magician, as arrogance heightens people's likleyhood of being fooled and is more interesting a performance, to create a mysterious villain... Eminem understands this too.

And you can't help BUT look arrogant if you do any kind of magic... and have to on some level embrace that for performance... because by default you are saying "I can do something which looks impossible,and you won't be able to figure out how I do it"... that's already a kind of... offense and a stance and a challenge lmao. So you can't pretend to be incredibly humble and casual if you're claiming you can read somebody's mind or make something literally vanish. They have to believe you believe you can do it, to some degree, to make the performance feel effective.

But when you look at his actual interactions mid-trick or between tricks with people, Derren is actually really nice and normal. Gervais isn't, he's a deluded narcissist.

But real Derren is not like that... or at least there's no evidence for that, if you listen to him actually talk for real in interviews etc. he's not smug and doesn't take himself seriously... he takes the piss out of himself all the time and he's not up his ass about how he's doing things, he just has a very fun and relaxed perspective on it all. Totally different guy all together from Gervais... Gervais is hung-up on his comedy being considered 'art' and wants to be an elite whilst appearing a common man...

Derren on the other hand... he rarely even comments on his own work, other than in interesting analysis, genuinely gives people enjoyable experiences through his work and shifts focus away from himself more and more now... and in real life... like, you can just tell. Gervais is still smug in his real actual personality, and always has been. Derren on the other hand... is actually quite shy and nervous, many journalists comment on it as they expect him to be what he is on stage... but that's a brilliant persona he's built up over years of performing, he's playing the role of THEE guy to challenge/hate/be curious about/thrilled at/stare at/freaked out by... it's the role of a magician.

When I'd perform magic.. I was nothing at all like how I am or how I truly feel or see things... but by default you have to be controlling and take a position of prominence, psychologically so that people follow your lead, question you less and you direct the situation... but that's just a means to an end, there's no way he could take on the sheer magnitude of techniques that he does and give the credit in the way that he does and accept the history of magical influences and be so openly self-critical and tear his own stuff down as well as others, like a child pulling a toy apart...

His real personality seems nothing like that. Just seems like a funny, relaxed guy who doesn't take what he does seriously or care if it's looked at as high art etc. and in fact, he even went out of his way to say how magic is actually cheap and tacky and went on a huge explanation about its roots... essentially discrediting what he does lmao, after somebody referred to it as 'his art' to him... that's nothing like Gervais. Gervais loves being thought of as an artist.. Derren gets quite embarrassed as ultimately he knows it stems from a silly shy boy's need to feel impressive.

He's interested in creating thrilling entertainment. Gervais is interested (now), in getting the credit for being a 'genius/comedian/artiste' and never being told he's wrong or shit. Derren Brown says things he's done are rubbish all the time... he said the lottery thing was shit... when would Gervais ever say something he's done is shit lmao? Nobody who is truly arrogant says something they've done is bad or is able to apply a real eye of critique on their stuff like a magician HAS to, to get like him.

[CrashBand]

Every interview, lol. About how important (which it is important) it is that it's not "real magic" and how he can "easily" debunk things. I don't care, lol. I like him and his shows, they're entertaining.

He isn't elitist about it being "art", more-so about it being "real". Which I agree with, but I also agree with a lot of what Gervais says.

I don't find him arrogant per-se, but, he certainly thinks he's doing something important (real magic).

[EminemBase]

Every interview, lol. About how important (which it is important) it is that it's not "real magic" and how he can "easily" debunk things. I don't care, lol. I like him and his shows, they're entertaining.

He isn't elitist about it being "art", more-so about it being "real". Which I agree with, but I also agree with a lot of what Gervais says.

I don't find him arrogant per-se, but, he certainly thinks he's doing something important (real magic).

But never once has he said he can easily debunk things lmfao like he's king of debunks... he just dislikes frauds like mediums who trample of people's dead memories and exploit very easy magic-esque techniques to pretend they're doing something real, and it's quite a detestable thing...

Nothing wrong with wanting to bring those people down or simply let the people who go to them know that there's very easy explanations for why they think this feels real. And You and any smart or informed person may know this / not believe bollox... but a great majority do and all it is... is wanting for society to have a broader access to information kept in secret about nonsense like this, because a lot believe it and it gets sensationalized in media when we've known how completely fake it is for ages, yet nobody talks about it, the same with religion. Just act like it's real out of 'respect'...

What do you mean @ real magic? lmao. Derren doesn't believe he's actually got magic powers... or are you comparing magic to like, mediums and saying he has an elitism about that or something, as in... it's all trickery and what's the difference?

I don't think you can just compared totally shit, fradulent claims that you're contating the dead, in order to exploit people's dead memories and vulnerable emotions, for money... with very very easy methods that almost anybody could do... and lying to gullbile, desperate people...

I don't think you can say that's anything like something which takes a lot of skill and practice and which is simply entertainment, acknowledged to be fake by all those involved and simply a piece of entertainment, something to watch and enjoy like a movie. He isn't exploiting anybody or lying, everybody who pays to come to his show understands they're about to be willingly tricked by Derren and their job is to catch him out or just sit back and enjoy it.

He's an entertainer and skilled performer. People who pretend to talk to dead people for money are just lowly scum, liars and the bottom of the human barrel lmao. One is an art, and something treasured throughout history... the other is false belief, fear of death, not being able to let go of dead family and friends, and exploiting profoundly vulnerable people with lies in exchange for money.

But he probably does think he's doing something important... or worthy, but what's wrong with that lmao? So you're not allowed to be proud of what you do or hope you're contributing to your... field or art or whatever in some way, without 'thinking highly of yourself'? I think most people have just been convinced that industrialized lives and mediocre pay, living conditions, paying taxes, not questioning things and accepting normalcy and repetition as 'valuable, hard working, and realistic', so anybody who decides they'll do what they love instead gets called a narcissist or full of themselves lmao.

[CrashBand]

By "real magic" I meant the opposite to what it sounded like, lol.

Non-supernatural.

[EminemBase]

Hmm, oh okay.

Yeah I think there's a huge difference though...

If I was in his position I'd go out of my way to define myself too because... think about it - he's half of his life dedicated to a myriad of skills and techniques, truly like... investing his every thought in to trying to create brilliant and engaging entertainment and puzzles for people...

And he started to replicate what is claimed by people who have no real skill, talent or good intent and instead are just leeches and frauds who exploit misery for cash lmao... but because he was doing something they claimed they could... it'd be very easy for people to presume he therefore thinks he's actually talking to dead people or that, he believes it's real... and lump him in.

When in reality he's very logical, a science enthusiast etc. so if you're a rational person who loves science and figuring things out... it would feel embarrassing and annoying to potentially be thought of as or lumped in with people who are just about the most detestable opposite of that.

It's kind of like how Eminem went out of his way to insult boy bands etc. as he was initially getting lumped in with them for being on the radio and being attractive to women / noveltyish etc. so he wanted to separate himself as... he's a skilled lyricist and wants to be included within hip-hop circles, not people like that.

Nuttin' wrong with that yo.

[Ku53v]

Honestly I'm not even gonna read that

lol never a more fitting time to say concession accepted

[EminemBase]

Honestly I'm not even gonna read that

Well what about just this bit then? As it responds to your main point @ fraud, which makes no sense...

We all know Derren is a magician, and he talks openly about that and the ways that he tricks people, and the tricks that he's done, after he's done them. So where's the fraud in that...

It actually just shows how good he is to get your back up for doing what i said he's brilliant at, which is make people analyze very regular tricks as REAL, because he talks like a normal person and puts tricks in real life context and so people get annoyed... thinking he's making a scientific claim, which he's doing intentionally to heighten the effect of the realism and its modern context...

It's a performance, of trickery and fiction, which we're all in on... just like a book is, just like a movie is... so what you're saying, makes no fucking sense. He's not claiming any of it is real lmao.

At no point after it does he say "yeah, that's real, I really did that" THAT would be a fraudulent claim. But the unspoken bond of people watching magic and us ALL knowing we're watching a piece of trickery for entertainment purposes is pretty ingrained, so it would be pretty fucking stupid if the magician kept emphasizing this was only a trick during the trick.

We all know movies are entertainment and nobody involved is claiming these movies are real events... similarly...we all know magic is entertainment and nobody involved, including the magician/actor is claiming these events are real'; however - they do whilst IN the ficiton/acting/movie/trick... otherwise where would the illusion / fiction take place?

Show me how movies and magic are NOT the same in that regard.
- They both make usually impossible scenarios (or attempt to) look real.
- They both acknowledge themselves as mediums by which to create fictional illusions.
- We all buy in to the fiction, and the creators do too, to enable them to try and create as realistic a potrayl of a story, effect, moment or moods as possible. For the performance/idea.
- Everybody involved - watching and creating, knows, and agrees this is fiction.
Where is the fraud...

I don't care if you don't like him, but this thing you keep doing of comparing him to a fraud or saying he's claiming this or that is really bizarre and stupid, and makes no sense.

[TonyTilt]

You're sick dude. Nice work